Into the Gamescape - Show 16
April 23rd, 2007 by MikeWell well well, the weeks just fly by, it’s that time again, grab hold of your headphones, it’s Into the Gamescape - Show 16!
The Gamescape went on holiday to the Seaside, well we went there, but didn’t pack a bucket and spade, oh no, we went to Baycon UK, one of our Top 2 conventions here in Blighty. So, tune in and find out what we played, what we liked, and what makes Paul put his head in his hands and whimper.
Also, the results of the first game from the Gamescape Decathalon - who won at Canal Mania - oooh, you’ll have to listen to find out!
April 24th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
(Wow that was a hard Anti Spam Test…)
One comment on the absurd opinion that Santiago is an area control game. First: It is a bidding and negotiation game. Second: Do you say that Ave Caesar is an area control game, in which the players bid with their cards to obtain certain spaces on the board?
Yes, one can argue that Area Control is a sort of slow, simultaneous bidding. You can even say that a trick taking card game is an auction game. And you can consider each trick as an area.
Anyway, it is great fun to listen to you, and I think you are most, erm, “listenworthy” when you have a rather good speed and cover many games. Like in your last show.
/Patrik, from Sweden
April 24th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
It’s not an absurd opinion!
In an area control game, you are playing pieces into an area to gain a majority, for that you score points.
In Santiago, you are adding pieces of the area (that you are in control of) to the growing area, in order to gain a majority. By doing so you gain more points that the other players. Sounds Area Controlish to me. Hey, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then I reckon it’s a duck.
No, Ave Caesar wouldn’t be classified as an area control game, although Si may disagree, when we last played it Fred “controlled” the entrance to the “pit lane” and Si was forced round again
April 24th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
The problem with your loos hypothesis are that you do not need any kind of control of the area in Santiago, once the bidding round/pipe plecement is done.
In El Grande you will score zero if other players join that region. In Louis XIV you will get nothing if you place too few pieces. But in Santiago you are just cumulating resources, e g money.
So I am happy that at least one member in your team would raise his voice to what is just and fair and common.
(Take a look at BGG…)
/Patrik
April 25th, 2007 at 3:41 am
Good show. I still crack up at the full-on geek intro. I might be in the minority here, but I say keep it for a while longer.
Mike - Ra is an area control game? If you look at it from a bird’s eye view, I can sort of see what you are saying (believe it or not) but my instincts say it is equal parts auction and set collection. BGG confirms my suspicion.
Andrew Pellerito raised the question of a rules-lite but theme-heavy wargame. Great question.
On the rules-lite side of things: Memoir 44, or BattleLore certainly come to mind. Problem here is how deep is the theme? Not all that deep, but maybe Battlelore could work. It’s pretty vanilla fantasy, though. From the AH stable, you could argue that Monsters Menace America or Nexus Ops could fit in here too. Of course with these dice battle games, you might be stretching the interpretation of “wargame”.
On the theme-heavy side of things, two games immediately come to mind for me: (1) War Of The Ring, and (2) Twilight Struggle.
War of The Ring is incredibly thematic. Most thematic wargame I’ve seen, in fact. There’s so much story-based interaction in the mechanics of that game. The way the Fellowship falls apart, the Hunt, the interplay of the dual-use cards, the epic battles in key locations, the vulnerability of The Shire, the way Gollum helps you in the end, etc. Problem here is the rulebook is kind of a wreck. Far too wordy, and makes the game about twice as hard as it needs to be by not having many good examples. I think this game is better if you have somebody show you how it works. It’s really not THAT hard, and it features one heck of a tense endgame.
Twilight Struggle is also very thematic with all the historic events in the cards and how they effect the game map. Rules aren’t too hard here either, only 8 pages or so.
So, those are my suggestions, and your mileage may vary depending on how “lite” you want your rules to be.
DC
April 25th, 2007 at 6:13 am
“Mike - Ra is an area control game? If you look at it from a bird’s eye view, I can sort of see what you are saying (believe it or not) but my instincts say it is equal parts auction and set collection. BGG confirms my suspicion.”
That’s exactly my point Dan, hooray someone else sees it
I wasn’t saying that Ra and Santiago were just area control games, just that there is an element of it in the mix!
I like the idea of War of the Ring, in fact I actually have that, so I may get that out and work through the rules again and see if we can get a game of that in sometime.
Thansk Dan!
Mike
April 26th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
Hi guys,
Grats to Ali.
thanks for the review of Baycon. It is now a staple of my year to the point where even my family come and stay. This would be a good thing, except when my wife makes the top ten and I don’t
I take your point (Canal Mania) that often in teaching games, the teacher loses his thread by having to explain things to the novices. It’s just that my recollection was that we simply picked the game up quickly and kicked your butt!
Looking forward to the return match at your place…
And thanks for the London Marathon plug (and your sponsorship)! Yes, it was way too hot to be running, but I made it round and that’s what counts. That, and raising a large amount of cash for the Royal Blind Society. Let’s hope no-one here ever needs their help.
Keep up the excellent website!
Fred
April 26th, 2007 at 11:48 pm
Guys, thanks for another great show. I appreciate the information that you gave me, both on the site and the podcast. Some good suggestions for games. I especially like the idea you gave to check out the rules they make available on the publishers website. That is a great idea and I’ve already started investigating.
I think I may have come across earlier as someone who doesn’t like reading rules. That’s not exactly true. I don’t mind a deeper rulebook if the game has a deep theme, but as I am new to wargames, I was hoping to start light and work my way into the deep end.
As for Dan Casey’s suggestion of War of the Ring, I think that’s where I may start my quest. Great suggestion Mr. Casey. Can we play Twilight Struggle or War of the Ring on Vassal?
Gents, your description of Baycon –makes me wish it was nearby. I’ll have to look around; maybe I’ll have to start my own. Looking forward to the next show. Keep up the good work.
Andrew Pellerito
April 30th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Somehow you failed to mention me in this installment, please correct this at your earliest opportunity.
Seriously though guys, another good show. Enjoyed the Baycon bits. (Ha! Now THATS funny.) Also can’t wait to hear the results of your Power Grid experience. Nicely done.
Mr_Six
April 30th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Uh oh,
“Mr Six”
“Mr Six”
“Mr Six”
“Mr Six”
“Mr Six”
Just warming up for the next show….
“Mr Six”
“Mr Six”
“Mr Six”
“Mr Six”
“Mr Six”
“Mr Six”
Ok, ready….
May 1st, 2007 at 8:18 pm
Baycon results are in. Two of you are in the top 100, and one isn’t!
And the bragging rights go to…
oh, look it up yourselves
May 10th, 2007 at 12:24 am
Another fine episode, fellows. Sounds like you had a mighty good time at BayCon.
FWIW, I really like the show intro. “Are you ready Si? Uh huh. Paul? Oh yeah. Mike? Okay. All right fellows, let’s go!”
Mr. Six: I was mentioned, does that give me bragging rights?
I think any euro game that uses victory points is really an area control game. The point total of all players is the “point space”, and you want to control more “point space” than any other player. Don’t you agree Mike?
For another discussion on rules light, but theme heavy games you might want to listen to episode 38A and especially 38B of Boardgames To Go with host Mark Johnson and Mike Siggins as guest, located at http://boardgamestogo.com/2005_10_01_boardgamestogo_archive.html - they talk about the ideal crossover game that also has historicity, with examples of which games may be approaching that ideal (of course anything in the last 18 months is missing, since this is from November 2005).
May 10th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Hi Herb
Well Mike and I certainly had a good time at BayCon - I think Paul did too in between the brain burns
I’m a big fan of BGTG but don’t think I’ve listened back that far - so thanks for the tip off, I’m off to have a listen right now
Later!
Si
May 10th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
I agree totally Herb, and it’s great to see someone with such a good grasp of some of the more “daft” things I say
May 10th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
Ra is area control now?!?! terrible
May 11th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
Where are the “Baycon results” to be found? I google for that phrase, this page is the first one listed.
May 12th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
You can find the Baycon Results on the Baycon website
http://baycon2007.googlepages.com/baycon2007
Good luck!